Kiln blog: One Big Happy Family

(While this was originally a duplicate of something from another blog, and that other blog was merged here, this post has been kept because of the huge amount of comment posted below.)

The Old Testament provides a wealth of imagery for describing our virtual congregation.

The background of the Bible presumes that humans are wired for ANE feudalism. Thus, this blog is a virtual feudal grant from God and I am the clan chief who leads a family. I am responsible to God for how I exercise dominion here.

Everyone is welcome. There is a covenant of faith in force here that guides what I write and what comments I permit through moderation. Aside from the obvious references to the Radix Fidem meta-religion outline posted here on our parish parlor blog (see the tab above), our covenant recognizes two primary marks of the Spirit’s Presence in your life: penitent humility and not disputing against Scripture. If we can see those two marks, we will assume you are brothers and sisters in this covenant of faith.

If you can’t embrace all that stuff, but still want to be friends, you will be regarded as resident aliens. You aren’t part of that family of faith covenant, but we offer another covenant of alliance, the one symbolized by sharing a meal in the Old Testament. I’m still your pastor/elder.

Enemies can post so long as it’s on-topic and seems to address something of substance. You’ll have to understand that I will seek to use hostile comments as opportunities to teach those who are not so hostile. It’s like a grant of safe passage for mutual benefit or maybe humanitarian reasons. I’ll pray for anybody.

I don’t take myself that seriously, so poking at me is not in itself a violation of protocol. I delete comments that serve no discernible purpose in what we do here, just like spam.

What’s different is that I don’t measure these things merely by intellect and reason. It’s not a question of rational categories. The boundaries aren’t precise and static, but alive. As with biblical language, I don’t define; I indicate. Context is everything in this world when bringing to bear the moral truth of God, which is rooted outside this world. I don’t mind trying to explain, but there are some things not open to debate.

About Ed Hurst

Disabled Veteran, prophet of God's Laws, Bible History teacher, wannabe writer, volunteer computer technician, cyclist, Social Science researcher
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19 Responses to Kiln blog: One Big Happy Family

  1. steven says:

    Am I still welcomed here? No hard feelings I hope. That said, I want to clarify some points:
    1. I’m not a sociopath. I self-diagnosed just because I thought it would make me look cool. A sociopath wouldn’t care for the wellbeing of children. Sociopaths only care for themselves.
    2. The actual reason I was a bit rude is that I wished to test my reasonement against a smart, conservative theologian like you. Maybe I should have been more diplomatic.
    3. I made a gramatical mistake: when I wrote “If you weren’t raised by” I intended to say “Have you not been raised by”.
    4. Your Radix Fidem is too ambiguous. You should clarify that you regard Predestination, literal inerrancy, prison slavery, corporal punishment and familism as essentials of the faith.


  2. Ed Hurst says:

    I’m answering both of your comments here. Re: Radix Fidem — It’s ambiguous intentionally. There is a very functional difference between communion over a kind of religious approach versus my personal applications. I’ve written repeatedly that theology is just one person’s mental organization of broader truths that cannot be put into words. A fundamental element I’ve restated here a hundred times is the vast difference between the intellectual assumptions of the West and those of the Bible. The Western idea of language is descriptive and analytical; in the Bible it’s indicative and symbolic. Words do not carry truth in the Bible; they are signposts for exploration, as words cannot contain the truth of God. I encourage all my readers to come up with their own peculiar theological answers, but offer the framework of Radix Fidem as a guide to understanding my basic assumptions so that fellowship is possible.

    So your labels are inaccurate. I’ve often specifically denied “literal inerrancy” because there is no such thing as propositional truth. I deny the typical fundamentalist statement that “words mean things.” Those are statements reflecting Aristotle’s approach to things, and the Bible is not Aristotelian; it’s mystical. Further, it’s a peculiar brand of Ancient Near Eastern mysticism, well established and well understood among biblical scholars. Yet the vast majority of the Western churches ignore all of that and promote a position that arises from the Western Church’s compromise with, first Greco-Roman thinking, and then with Germanic Tribal mythology. The result is the Enlightenment, the fundamental approach of almost all Western Christianity. I have studied all of that and consciously rejected it. So I don’t qualify for the labels that fit them.

    What I object to is how you continue trying to shove me into that corner. Your comments always miss the point and you keep insisting that I stick with an Aristotelian approach. When I tell you that’s not how I do it, you ignore that and keep pushing on the same track to nowhere. Aristotle is roasting in Hell — that in itself is just an expression with no literal meaning — because he had plenty of chances to learn the truth from visiting Jewish scholars, but openly rejected mysticism. Mysticism is how God intends us to understand His Creation. God didn’t just choose the Hebrew people and their culture; He built it specifically as the one best way to communicate His revelation. Revelation includes the packaging of Hebrew mystical thinking; you don’t have a revelation without it. But the only way we can know that revelation is the record in Scripture. His Son made that point several times, so it’s hard to argue without rejecting the Son. But His Son also strove to drag His people back to the ancient Hebrew mystical approach because that’s part of revelation. My commitment is to do my best to stick with that whole package, and I make it a point to often note that nothing is binding on my readers. They are free to ignore.

    So I’ll be glad to explain how I get my statements, and I try to indicate where I get my vocabulary. However, I see no reason to defend what I already left behind. There are millions of people who either are, or are familiar with, the Southern Baptists out of which I come. Their expressions are not foreign to most readers, so it’s safe. Part of my mission is speaking to those who understand that kind of vocabulary, but I’ve often pointed out that I am not bound by that vocabulary. It’s nothing more than speaking their language to point out how that language has become a trap. But by no means will I defend my positions on anything, because there’s no point in it. There’s nothing to defend; it’s just the way I do things. Somehow it seems to help the 800 or so subscribers to this blog. I use my personal faith and religion (two different things) to illustrate how others could approach the whole question of coming to terms with God.

    And if you keep misusing labels to characterize my positions, you’ll get some of it back and there will be no dialog, no comparing of notes. As long as you keep playing that silly game, I’ll offer a very limited response in kind and then point out to others how you keep missing the whole point of this blog. I’m quite willing to let the readers decide what they think, but the rhetorical attacks on me personally do get tiresome.


  3. Ed Hurst says:

    Steven, it’s not mere diplomacy. The net effect of your comments betrays not a hint of compassion. How can we fellowship when you maintain that adversarial tone?


  4. steven says:

    Maybe I was wrong about “literal inerrancy”. My apologies. That said:

    “Your comments always miss the point and you keep insisting that I stick with an Aristotelian approach”

    You misperceive me. I think you SOMETIMES use a Mystical (NON-Aristotelian) approach to endorse some ideas which are AlSO advocated by some Scholastics/Aristotelians. You didn’t come to believe in Predestination through Scholasticism as Calvin did, but you agree with Calvin on Theodicy (with the picture of God this implies). Its a very obvious and significative coincidence you cannot negate. Likewise, you endorse the child rearing philosophy (corporal punishment) advocated by Southern Baptists and Calvinists. More coincidences:
    -You believe parents should be allowed to abuse their children to death. This was called Patria Potestas in Ancient Rome. I call it Familism.
    -Prison Slavery, which you picture as “ANE” and “Anti-Western” is allowed in USA:
    “Penal labor in the United States, when intended as a form of slavery or involuntary servitude, is explicitly allowed by the 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution”, “Some states require, as with Arizona, all able-bodied inmates to work”

    “But the only way we can know that revelation is the record in Scripture”

    Scripture itself is just a record of individual mystical revelations. That my exegesis differs from yours sometimes does NOT invalidate my faith, as I’m a male Joan of Arc (God Himself anoited me as a mystic as prophesied in Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17).

    “Part of my mission is speaking to those who understand that kind of vocabulary”

    This may explain why we tend to misunderstand each other. I’m not a native Anglophone. My parents are “suburbanites” (small bourgeoisie).

    “but the rhetorical attacks on me personally do get tiresome”

    I NEVER attacked you personally (i.e. ad hominem). Anyway, you seem to need some positive feedback:

    1. I respect you as a smart, cultured theologian.
    2. I trust you when you claim to be a mystic who can talk with trees.
    3. I appreciate your effort to grasp the worldview of Ancient Hebrews.
    4. I endorse your rejection of chivalry as Protofeministic Germanic Paganism in disguise.
    5. I endorse your rejection of Aristotle/Scholasticism.
    6. I endorse your criticism of neocons and liberals (I’m a libertarian).


  5. steven says:

    I called you “brother” despite our theological differences. Thats compassion. Do you still regard me as a friend?
    Criticism is NOT hostility. How can I express disagreement without an “adversarial tone”?


  6. Ed Hurst says:

    I suppose you could find a way to soften to tone? Notice the way I use words to suggest, not poke. You may have trouble picking that up, so I’ll just leave it alone.


  7. Ed Hurst says:

    “Abuse children to death” — In wider comments I suggest that it’s simply no one else’s business, not that it’s an acceptable outcome. In the Bible, the household is a petty kingdom in God’s eyes, and retains far more freedom than would ever be acceptable in any Western society. See my latest post for a little more on that.

    Regarding prison and/or slavery, it would take a book to lay out all the differences between ANE and Western ways on that issue. For example, the US approach was never intended to help the prisoner. It’s wholly adversarial and the system fights hard against measures that recognize prisoners who are ready to try again. In the Bible, slavery is one thing; restitution and justice is entirely separate. Slavery then might be used only as a means of restitution to the victim/offended party. And the element of mercy is the starting point for punishment. In the US, “mercy” is just a cover word for cold and heartless economic considerations. I’ve worked close to the US “justice system” and know it intimately. It’s based entirely on hatred and a faux personal grudge, taking all mistakes as a personal insult.

    Don’t mistake the appearance of coincidence for approval. I was educated by Baptists (which is largely no longer Calvinist these days in the US). But because I was so deep in their stuff, I can tell you that there is a very significant difference between theirs and my approach. I went way outside their circles to complete my education and rejected their fundamental assumptions, largely because I could identify the huge flaws that troubled my heart from the beginning. They would never let me in the door any more; they’ve repeatedly run me off. There is a fundamental difference that might be hard to see from outside. A great many other American Christians use the same religious language they do, and my calling is to prophesy against their peculiar spiritual failures. If some of my writing appeals to folks outside the US, it’s their choice to join this virtual parish. My ministry is aimed at Americans.

    At any rate, this is pointless; I seem unable to explain to your satisfaction the differences I have with them. Move on to some fresh objections, please. Let’s agree to disagree like friends.


  8. steven says:

    Thank you Ed. I will try to be more nice, but I’m just an autistic young man, so the next time I cross the line please give me a clear warning before you “bellow and intimidate”. Pretending to be a sociopath despite my obvious sensitivity was just an act of teenage bravado: it seems that I’m a CLOWN, which is a good thing by your standards. I admit my brutal honesty was brutal even by aspie standards in our last debate, but I needed to be sure that my anti-spanking exegesis is reliable, as God wants me to use my novel to prophesy against the Cult of Moloch (Sadism).

    Lets me make a last attempt to understand (understand, NOT criticize) your position, please. If I can’t get it right this time I won’t talk about it again intentionally (its a PROMISE. Aspies never lie):

    In Positions you wrote “Abortion is a sin, but the Bible says the mother is accountable to God first, and then her immediate blood kin. Agitating to make it illegal is evil”. Likewise, you believe abuse is a sin, but agitating to make it illegal is evil. This Buddhist-like detachment strikes me as de facto neutrality, like Swiss in WW2.

    Regarding slavery/prison, USA takes a Retributive approach while Western Europe (specially Norway) takes a Restorative approach. You seem to favor Restoration over Retribution. What would you advise to avoid being prison raped in US prisons?

    I acknowledge the differences. Like Jesus, you believe “children are innocent”, unlike Calvinists who heretically teach “children are young vipers”. Likewise, you reject the literalistic picture of Hell as physical torture in a literal lake of fire, unlike Calvinists who follow Dante with their “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”. Do you believe in free will?

    P.S. Could you inform your readers that you befriended me again? I fear that after what you said about me in “Whats going on 03” your readers may think of me as a brat at best, as an infiltrator at worst.


  9. Ed Hurst says:

    We can be friends, and I’ll let the world know that I so regard you.

    Molech was a forerunner of the modern secular State. The question of abortion in my comments is mostly about keeping the state out family business. You have to keep in background that I assert the extended family household — whether a DNA clan or a covenant association, and preferably both — is God’s provision for government on this earth. I don’t support secular laws against abortion because it will never work out as most Christian Crusaders think it would. Abortion is one step removed from murder, but the State is not a victim of this crime. Nor is a democratic community much of a good substitute for a tribe, so while it’s not a bad idea that a local community might ostracize someone who aborts or abuses their children, it’s the worst form of oppression to let hired thugs (police, courts, officials, etc.) pretend they can assess proper punishment based on some bogus “objective ideals”. I realize that my teaching is unlikely to change what actually happens in the real world, but I register my dissent and ask my fellow Christians to consider whether it provokes a spiritual response in their souls.

    And I do prefer the Western European restorative approach to criminal justice. No, it’s not perfect, but it is a lot better than what the US does. There are no good answers for Americans on this, but until God sees fit to destroy this country (maybe sooner than later), there are just a few things a man might do to be in a better position to survive in prison. It happens they are the same things I’d suggest without that threat. It’s covered under the broad writing of restoring manhood and a deep faith in God. I won’t pretend that every man is cut out for it, but the Bible promotes the image of men being at least capable and willing to fight, not so much as a threat to everyone, but someone who makes predators think twice. It’s not just physical development, nor some kind of swagger in public, but a collection of factors that project to others you aren’t an easy victim. There’s not enough room here to summarize the whole picture, but it requires knowing what actually works to project that image, which does not overlap much with social mythology. It’s worth taking the time to read about the experiences men have had in prison to see what kind of world it is, and how to understand the psychology. But in the final analysis, it’s really a matter of trusting God and obeying your heart’s guidance to fit yourself for your mission in life.

    The question of “free will” is full of land mines. I make distinctions that aren’t generally recognized by Western theologians, largely because I reject their epistemology. The debate between Calvinist and Armenian rests too firmly on mere human reason, while I make no effort to make my position fit into that structure. And I’m perfectly willing to let some issues dangle in the wind or speculation. On the one hand, our eternal destiny is entirely a matter of God’s initiative. There is an indefinable meeting point between God and humans that includes a matter of human volition, but we cannot comprehend it with our minds. Once we are past that point, there is a whole range of variables that are entirely personal between you and God. You’ll have volition in some ways, in some things, but He will also limit you. It is entirely wrong to focus in this life on gaining eternal salvation; seize it as a gift you alone can know you have. Work out from there what God offers you as your unique heritage as His child.


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  11. steven says:

    Thank you Ed. You befriended me two times despite your perception of me as “problematic” and “disruptive”. What do you like about me?

    According to the Bible, Molech main traits are:
    1. Sadism, specially (but not exclusively) towards children (Leviticus 18:21).
    2. Saturn/Remphan impersonating Christ/YHWH (Acts 7:43), i.e. Legalism and Fatalism.
    This implies that Molech is Odin/Allah, the Fundamentalist/Pharisee/Muslim “God”. Likewise, Astarte/Venus is Eoster, the Liberal/Saducee/Feminist “Goddess”.

    Abortion is worse than murder because currently it implies blasphemy and torture. Liberals deny the Imago Dei (humanity) of fetuses, which allows these “doctors” to kill fetuses in gruesome ways (ex. dismemberment). Abortion makes liberals a bunch of hypocritical bastards every time they criticize Hitler. Likewise, fundamentalists regard children as slaves they can torment/abuse at whim, blasphemously pretending that beating them to death is “Godly”. That said, I agree that bureaucrats and policemen are hired thugs. Statism = Sauron One Ring (just read the Ring Verse).

    According to No Escape (, prison rape follows a clear pattern:
    “Specifically, prisoners fitting any part of the following description are more likely to be targeted: young, small in size, physically weak, white, gay, first offender, possessing “feminine” characteristics such as long hair or a high voice; being unassertive, unaggressive, shy, intellectual, not street-smart, or “passive”; or having been convicted of a sexual offense against a minor. Prisoners with any one of these characteristics typically face an increased risk of sexual abuse, while prisoners with several overlapping characteristics are much more likely than other prisoners to be targeted for abuse”, “The characteristics of prison rapists are somewhat less clear and predictable, but certain patterns can nonetheless be discerned. First, although some older inmates commit rape, the perpetrators also tend to be young, if not always as young as their victims–generally well under thirty-five years old. They are frequently larger or stronger than their victims, and are generally more assertive, physically aggressive, and more at home in the prison environment. They are “street smart”–often gang members. They have typically been convicted of more violent crimes than their victims”
    This implies that segregation would prevent most rapes, so prison rape is de facto allowed by the State because society (including prison guards) doesn’t care about male rape, as most people assume that only females can be dishonored or traumatized by rape. This chivalrous, feministic, matriarchal, misandric attitude is, along with abortion, the worst sin of the Cult of Eoster.

    I’m not against Monergism, but as a practical matter, I believe in free will because its the basis of Christian Libertarianism, i.e. Freedom as a Gift from God. Anyway, I agree that free will goes beyond the Calvinist-Arminian debate. Do you believe that God is the Cause of Evil?


  12. Ed Hurst says:

    I like your persistence. There’s always room for anyone with a genuine need that I can meet.

    I’ve read prison sociological studies similar to the one you cite. Yes, segregation of the prison population would be wise, but America (as an Anglo-Saxon culture) has long been spiteful about such things.

    God as the cause of evil? That’s a question that results in semantic tail-chasing. God’s Word says He’s not the author of evil, though, if only because He is the definition of good. I contend that human logic is fallen and raises impossible logical dilemmas as part of that fallen nature. We weren’t there are Creation, so we can’t know the answer to such things as the logical source of evil. I’m content to deny the validity of the question. I contend that free will is not absolute. I also don’t push anyone to agree with me; I simply explain my own position.


  13. steven says:

    Interesting. Had I give up at some point, we wouldn’t be reconciled, nor would we be able to dream of something better than an agree to disagree. For ex, now I realize that you don’t actually support beatings/abuse like odinites do. You simply object to State interference against Family, which is a legitimate objection by my libertarian standards. BTW, what do you think about corporal punishment IN SCHOOLS? Teachers aren’t parents but drill sergeants (mandatory education is conscription for minors, so teachers = Hartmann), so they could be legitimately prosecuted by the State if they beat children.

    Hmm, but you somewhere said that you will be the advisor of someone with political influence, much like Daniel in Babylon. Then you may be able to persuade this politician to segregate the prison population to prevent male rape, and to raise awareness about male rape through propaganda. Be a Good Samaritan toward these brutalized young men, please. As Saint Paul said: “And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing” (1 Corinthians 13:2).

    I conclude that grosso modo you believe in free will, and that you DENY that God is the cause of evil, so I apologize for calling you a “Mystical Semi-Calvinist”. The East believes that the central tenet of Western theology is that Western Christianity considers God to be the real cause of all evil, regardless of whether or not Western theologians acknowledge this position or not (some staunch Calvinists admit this). In Eastern Orthodoxy, evil is the estrangement from God who is life. How do you manage to reconcile Predestination with free will and the idea that God is NOT the cause of evil? Remember that I’m trying to understand, not criticize.


  14. Ed Hurst says:

    Even if my vision of serving as a Daniel turns out be misguided, you should believe that I will use whatever influence I have for the glory of God. But it will always be consistent with my calling. There are times we wait silently until that moment when the Holy Spirit opens the door to speak. I always look for ways to press God’s mercy and compassion as the primary manifestation of His glory in us.

    I don’t believe in schools as they currently exist, so corporal punishment in schools is wrong a priori. It’s illegal in almost every part of the US, so it’s not much of an issue now, but I note that with the presence of police officers in public schools, it’s coming back in through another entrance. Instead of mere corporal punishment, we have outright physical abuse and brutality in the schools. Mandatory secular “education” is sacrificing your children to Molech. There is very little we can do to oppose the juggernaut of secular oppressive government on this issue, but we never forget that it’s wrong.

    Predestination affects your eternal destiny, not your life here on the earth. Human free will encompasses a whole range of human choice throughout life; it’s the freedom to decide a lot of things, not just that one eternal choice. Nor do I imagine predestination as something cold and hard, reduced to that one single question of eternal destiny, but it’s a question of where God has placed us in His realm. I find the typical debate about free will versus predestination full of false assumptions in itself. The question itself presumes to know things that cannot be known until after we depart the flesh. The whole thing is impossible to grasp from this side of eternity, so it’s a bogus preoccupation. The question stands on Aristotelian epistemology, and I find such an epistemology is presumptuous at best — it asks all the wrong questions.

    A mystical epistemology of the heart presumes that all questions are relational, not logical; they are first moral, and only secondarily analytical. The concept of objective truth is a myth. It’s a question of knowing the Person who Created all things. Human reason and logic is a chimera, a thing that doesn’t really exist. It’s a part of the fallen nature, wholly unable to grasp reality in fullness. It’s the wrong approach to every question that really matters, and is good only for the mechanics of how we might implement moral decisions. And both West and East have moved quite a ways from the Ancient Hebrew way of reasoning. Hebrew thinking first and foremost presumes a feudal existence with God up at the top of the chain. Existence itself is personal and relational, so it leaves no room for the great debates of theology; they all arose after the churches lost contact with the Hebrew roots of faith.

    I’m fully aware of those historical debates, and I use the terminology that arose from them, but I find that almost the whole range of debate is bogus. I don’t have to reconcile free will and predestination, because the terms themselves carry baggage I don’t own.


  15. Pingback: The Feudal Nature of Existence | Do What's Right

  16. steven says:

    Thank you, Ed. Aside from charity, I called your attention on issues like male rape and abortion in order to show you that my concern about corporal punishment is honest, not some sinister “unspoken agenda” as you paranoically thought. Libertarianism allows me to be myself and criticize both Left and Right, just like Christ stood against both Saducees and Pharisees. Conscription, Corporal Punishment, Abortion and Male Rape are just different forms of the same thing: Authoritarian Sadism against the Helpless Individual. True Christians have the moral duty of anathematizing these atrocities, even if this means standing alone against the world: “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 7:12).

    BTW, you advised me to “read about the experiences men have had in prison”. Aside from the sociological study, No Escape offers lots of testimonies:
    They are extremely disturbing. It would be way more humane to go back to mutilation as penalty as in the Middle Ages. I state this literally, as I would prefer infinitely to lose a hand for stealing than to spend years being raped and tortured daily. Even burning at the stake would be preferable to the living death these poor men experienced. Notice the negligent, amoral, psychopathic attitude of the guards, as in the following examples:
    “The more time a man has, the more respect he gets, the more he is feared, the more the guards ignore his misbehavior and let him do what he wants, including rape! The mentality of a lot of guards is that it’s only a convicted felon screwing another, so who cares?”, “The guards just turn their backs. Their mentality is the tougher, colder, and more cruel and inhuman a place is, the less chance a person will return. This is not true. The more negative experiences a person goes through, the more he turns into a violent, cruel, mean, heartless individual, I know this to be a fact.”, “I was young and yes i was weak. My weight was only 120 lbs, the first few months i was raped and beat up many times, i would always Fight back, i wanted my attackers to know i was not a Willing Subject for their evilness. I went to the Guards for help and was told there was nothing that could be done, that i would have to stand up like a Man and Take Care of my own troubles”, “When I was sent to prison,] I was just barely 18 years of age, about 90 pounds. I did nine years from March 1983 to November 1991. In that 9 years I was raped several times. I never told on anyone for it, but did ask the officer for protective custody. But I was just sent to another part of the prison. Than raped again. Sent to another part of the prison. Etc. This went on for 9 years…”, “When a man finally gets his victim, he protects him from everyone else, buys him anything, the victim washes his clothes, his cell, etc. In return, the entire prison knows that this guy has a “BITCH” or “girl.” This gives power to the aggressors ego. In here, the egos multiply a lot more than in society. Now I’ve seen this happen many many times. The response from the guards is “the strong survive,” “who cares,” or they join in on the teasing, tourmenting, etc.”
    You cannot expect these kids to be “at least capable and willing to fight” against a gang of large thugs for the same reason you cannot expect a cow to be capable to fly. Even a medium-sized man would be helpless if assaulted by a gang. IMHO, the guards are accomplices of these atrocities, and deserve to burn in hell as much as prison rapists. As I said, prison rape happens because its de facto allowed by the State, as the guards get away with such demonic negligence instead of being prosecuted.

    As far as I know, corporal punishment in schools is still allowed in 19 states (including Oklahoma). 78.26% of the victims are male (notice the implicit misandry). Historically (and currently in places like Singapore), it was explicitly misandrist, as girls never were spanked because touching the bottom of a girl wouldn’t be “chivalrous” (sic), while boys were brutally beaten with a cane that left bleeding, painful injuries for DAYS (aside from the psychological trauma, which sometimes made sensitive boys commit or at least attempt suicide). Odin demands sadism, but Eoster demands female exemption, so Odin tortures exclusively boys and men: this is chivalry (protofeminism). Do you know that Mandatory “education” was devised by the Puritans? Its hardly surprising, as Puritans were practically the reincarnation of Pharisees.

    Predestination: I will reply in The Feudal Nature of Existence.

    Off-topic: here is a free PDF of The Decline of the West. Take it as a gift:
    I find rather interesting to compare your ANE with Spengler’s Magian Soul. There are overlaps but also differences (ex. you associate Israel with Egypt and Babylon, while Spengler associates it with Persia, Arabia and Byzantium).


  17. Ed Hurst says:

    As I said, I know way more than I want to know about the American prison system. It’s part of what I hate about America.

    I’m familiar with Spengler’s thesis; I know I’ve read parts of his volume somewhere. It’s not a question of whether I would try to correct his approach, but that my research and experience naturally results in characterizing things differently. I focus on the biblical narrative of how Israel arose from Abraham (Sumerian, Ancient Babylonian, other regional influences) and passed eventually to Moses, who was raised Egyptian, but spent forty years with Jethro (Abrahamian) so that the resulting influence is broadly Ancient Near Eastern, since ANE includes Egypt and Persian. I think of Arabian as derived from Abraham somewhat, and Persian didn’t really develop until about the time of the Babylonian revival.

    Side note: So far as I can tell, Babylon 1 was Nimrod’s time. There was a Babylon 2 that wasn’t necessarily self-conscious as Babylonian, but can be characterized as Babylon (Sumer, Larsa, etc.) Babylon as an influence was quiescent during the ancient Assyrian domination. Babylon 3 was the time of Nebuchadnezzar. It’s not so radically different from the various epochs of Egyptian history. In both cases, our modern understanding is probably a house of cards, but it’s what we can estimate from where we stand. At the same time, I try to maintain a separation between Babylon the historical artifact and Babylon the biblical symbol.


  18. steven says:

    Astrologically speaking, prison rape reveals the saturnine nature of USA (in the sense of devouring its own children like Cronus/Saturn):
    “…I will give you my observations on all these types of assult shortly; but first I feel I should tell you the people most at risk. And they are white males usualy slight of build and physicaly atractive, between 17-25 yrs of age. Please note although other ethnic groups such as young blacks and Hispanics have sufferd these indignities it happens to them far far less often than to young whites…”
    IMHO, this is the apex of anti-white racism (glorified by feminist psychopaths like Krista Heflin, who once said “I will keep laughing at rape jokes, as prison is the only place where a white man feels vulnerable”). Simply demonic.

    However, while you use “Western” for both Apollonian (Greco-Roman) and Faustian (Germanic), Spengler only acknowledges the latter as Western. For Spengler, Apollonian is as different from Faustian as its from Magian (ANE). Also, Spengler regards Byzantium (i.e. Eastern Orthodoxy) as Magian despite its Apollonian aesthetics and language, just like the NT is Magian despite being written in Koine Greek.
    That said, Spengler grossly overrates both Medieval Islam and the Aztec Empire (Mexican Soul).

    Side note: Babylon means “Gateway to the Gods”. What if the Tower of Babel was a Gateway to Eden? Maybe Nimrod planned to sneak into Eden and steal the Fruit of Life. If this sounds implausible to you, remember that ancient tyrants coveted immortality (ex. Qin Shi Huang died from elixir poisoning due to ingesting mercury pills, made by his alchemists. These pills were meant to make Qin Shi Huang immortal). This would imply that the idea of alive humans visiting the Spiritual Realm predates Greece (however, there is a difference between building a gateway to another dimension and stepping in the Netherworld through a cave as in Greek Mythology).

    BTW, you regard Fundamentalism as the Cult of Odin and Feminism as the Cult of Eoster. What do you think is the Cult of Loki?


  19. Ed Hurst says:

    I’ve not bothered to evaluate the whole catalog of cults because it’s not an issue I have to deal with. Spengler shared a very common error with big thinkers everywhere: He tries too hard to account for everything, as if his bright mind could find a matrix of evaluation that fits all cases. I don’t necessarily agree with his distinctions because they don’t work for me. His Apollonian and Faustian distinction is useful if I spent a lot of time dealing with people from those backgrounds. My audience is American; it has little bearing on my mission where the dominant influence is Anglo-Saxon, which is an odd mixture of Faustian and Apollonian.

    In the comments about Odin/Oester, I was trying to clarify with Christine that the modern cults of Odin/Oester were only very poorly connected to the original body of mythology regarding those two names. I encountered the modern version of those cults in my reading in current political and social philosophy. The people writing that stuff claimed Odin/Oester for themselves. I’ve not encountered a self-conscious Cult of Loki in the same vein.

    As regards Babylon, I’m pretty sure Nimrod and his lackeys knew this wasn’t precisely literal. We look at the bulk of ANE literature and realize they were thinking in terms of multiple realms of existence. Their own word bab-ili can be translated as Gate of the Gods or Gate of the Heavens, which required no precise distinction in their language. Their writings were loaded with what we would call hyperbole and parable. It’s hard to know exactly what they were trying to say in modern terms, because their assumptions about reality were so radically different from anything in our world today. And if you view them from a more biblical Hebrew outlook, it was a confused mix of mythologies that miss the whole point. I agree they were seeking some power over our human existence, to include some legendary millennial life-span such as Methuselah had, but it’s more complicated than that. They were convinced it was possible to recover some secret magic that granted such things, a search led by demons.


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